Kingpin’s love story seemed doomed from the start. Back when Wilson Fisk (Vincent D’Onofrio) met Vanessa (Ayelet Zurer) in the first few episodes of the Netflix incarnation of Daredevil, it seemed inevitable that she would someday pay the price for falling in love with such an evil man. But after an attempt on her life during season 1, she endured and grew into a darker character, even taking over Kingpin’s empire for a while.
Then, in Daredevil: Born Again season 2, episode 2, “Gloves Off,” Vanessa ends up with a shard of glass in her temple after Bullseye (Wilson Bethel) tries to kill her and Fisk during Fisk’s boxing exhibition match.
What happens after that significantly alters the story for Kingpin and for Vanessa going forward. Zurer spoke with Polygon about the change.
[Ed. note: Significant spoilers ahead for episode 5, “The Grand Design.”]
For much of “The Grand Design,” it looks as though Vanessa might recover, just as she did from being poisoned in season 1. But she dies in her hospital bed, and Kingpin becomes even more violent than usual, killing a doctor who’s merely offering condolences.
With her time on the series ended, Ayelet Zurer spoke with Polygon via Zoom to discuss her love story with Kingpin, the Vanessa character arc she struggled with most, and how playing the character in the Netflix series differed from the Disney Plus version.
Polygon: How did you find out about Vanessa’s death? How did you feel about it?
Ayelet Zurer: Well, I got some calls explaining the situation before we even started the season. [Showrunner] Dario [Scardapane] explained to me how he sees it and why he needs it. [Executive producer] Sana [Amanat] also called me. They were very concerned that I would take it personally. It was always about the storyline and why they needed that to take it to the next level. Then there was the conversation with Vincent. I believe he tried many times to change the tune, but he wasn’t successful. I understood why they needed it, because the one thing that really can throw [Kingpin] into a tantrum would be [Vanessa’s death].
Did you suspect from the beginning that this relationship would be doomed?
I kind of did, but I have to say, I could still investigate her for years to come, because I find her to be so interesting, and their relationship to be so interesting. But the show is not specifically about them. It’s really about the relationship of power between Charlie and Vincent — I mean, Daredevil and Fisk. So anything else is a tool to drive the story in a certain direction.
You were saying that you could still examine her for years. Were you ever surprised by aspects of how she was written?
Oh, yeah. I remember when I came into the first season [of Daredevil: Born Again] and I learned that they wrote that she had a lover, I was like, “No fucking way.” This woman, for her, it’s always been about loyalty versus truth. That’s the deal. The deal was that you give me truth and I give you loyalty, and vice versa.
For me, to start the season with “Oh, she has a lover,” that was the hardest thing to find a reason to work with, so there was a bit of discussion about that. I remember persuading Dario to shift it into somebody from the art world, because I felt like, if anything, she would appreciate an artist and that’s why she would go for it. But not really for love, or not to be alone, or sex, or anything like that. She’s so specific, she could not have done that. So they shifted that, and I’m thankful for that. That’s how Adam became an artist.
Once this was set, I had to find out why the loyalty was questionable. I think I found it with the fact that [Kingpin] left her. That was a betrayal, so she was taking a step into betrayal to hurt him. That’s the logic I had to find within her. Then they slowly moved back into loyalty and truth in the strange therapy sessions they were in.
How do you view their love story?
I’ve always seen them like two movie stars. There’s some grand gesture to the whole thing. He’s so big, and the voice is out of this world, even though it’s all grounded in real emotions and humanity. She needs to match that, so she’s sort of the femme fatale, in a way.
Who do you think is the more ruthless of the two?
Probably him. I think she’s ruthless to satisfy something for him. I don’t think she has a passion to gain more and more power. Power is not the thing. Power serves something for her. I think power serves protection. For him, power is just a tool to get more power. That’s ruthless.
After season 3 of the Netflix iteration, and then coming back to the role a few years later, was there any difference for you between the two?
Oh yeah. It was very challenging, because time had passed and I grew up. I couldn’t play Vanessa like I played her before. There’s a naïveté to the first Vanessa, and I feel like I didn’t want to pretend that I have it. I really leaned into the woman who’s seen some stuff and done some stuff. Life affected her.
It was really fun to expand on the power and the manipulation, and on her acute way of listening to what people want, and using them for that. That was a new thing, because beforehand, it was all about love and serving him and caressing him. But they really gave me more to do in season 1 and season 2 of Born Again. The journey is really interesting. There’s some crazy, weird shift where they’re becoming one.
What has your relationship been like with Vincent D’Onofrio?
Amazing. We’re close friends. He’s always had my back. He’s a phenomenal actor and he’s always been my best supporter on the show. We’re both Cancers, maybe two or three days apart, so it was very easy for us.
Did you say earlier that he tried to convince them not to kill you off?
I think so.
How do you think Vanessa’s death will affect Kingpin going forward?
It’s going to be very bad.
Daredevil: Born Again is currently airing its eight-episode second season on Disney Plus. New episodes air on Tuesdays.
